How old is too old for a dental?

[Bluebrindle Immaterial]

I have a 14yr. old IG. He has had terrible teeth since he was 5 yrs. old. I have gotten him dental cleanings yearly since then. He will not allow me to scale his teeth as I currently do for my whippets. He really needs a dental but I am afraid to put him under. I fear he may not come back. He is a happy guy but has obvious thyroid problems and many fatty tumors. Up until recently heis legs were good but his arthritis is acting up and his hind legs seem a lot weaker. I know he probably only has a year or so left but I don't want to lose him for a dental. At the sae time I feel guilty because his teeth are so bad. It's a tough choice! Any suggestions?

[zacsmom]

You can Google: No anesthesia dog teeth cleaning. I take two Poms and 2 IGs to Canine Care in Southern Califorina. There are many places. I heard there is a company in California but also has a group in NY.

Here is one website http://home1.gte.net/midilaw/index777.htm I think you might be able to find something similar. It is probably easier to find in a major city, but can't hurt to find out. Canine Care also has their own school for dog and cat hygienists. Also look at post number 22 down in vet care from your current posting there. Hope I was of some help.

[jeffkmyers]

My two whippies, Devo & Daisy, are going on 13. I was using the non-anesthetic teeth cleaner to avoid the anesthetic, but then read that you still have to go to the vet for the full dental, more or less yearly, to avoid gum infections that can travel to the major organs and blood. So the risk of anesthesia is less than the risk of a shorter life due to gum disease.
But you have posed a great question: When can we stop the full vet cleaning with our older whippies? Discuss it with your vet, I guess. If you don't trust your vet, find one you do trust. The bonus with cleaning at the vet is that they can do a blood test each time...so you're screening for various things that you might otherwise miss. You should be taking older whippets to the vet for a physical once or even twice a year, they say.

[avalonia]

With annual shots now pretty well dismissed as unnecessary and potentially very dangerous, with evidence that dogs with 3 shots as puppies and one booster at 1 year and 4 months of age, plus rabies, and/or bordatella are the only other shots really necessary to ensure continued good health for a whippet, dental requirements have become the new money maker for vets who are seeing healthier pets living longer than ever in recorded history.

For the record, we have 31 whippets, a Labrador Retriever, an Irish Setter, a rescue Daschund, a rescue Malamute/Shepherd cross and one Cirnecho dellEtna varying in age from 2 weeks to 15 years of age (3 of them are 15) and guess what -- we have not had dental work done on any of them!

No we don't ignore them. Yes we pay attention to all their needs, including dental needs! We do scale their teeth ourselves for those dogs that build up scale on the back molars, and this is easily done, but other than that, we do nothing. We provide denta bones, cow leg bones, etc. and most of the cleaning is done naturally, as nature intended.

Do all these dogs need veterinary dental work? Dear heavens, no! And does our honest to god this is the truth vet tell us we need it? No he does not! In fact he tells us what we already know... this is a money making venture and with sensible care any owner of a dog -- or two -- or even 31 like we have -- can ensure the dental needs of their dogs.

In fact, we have had only one dental emergency with one dog that we have owned, and there we did have the dog operated on -- a 14 year old whippet who began to bleed from the gums -- and had 6 teeth removed and it saved her life and she lived for almost two years more -- but other than that, no, we have not succumed to the cult of teeth cleaning.

We also had one older dog -- an imported dog from England, 11 years of age, with the worst plaque buildup I had ever seen in a whippet -- some dogs build it some don't. i took him to my vet and said, perhaps you should do him. He looked hard at him, listened to his heart and said you have two choices.... I can put him under and see if he lives long enough to clean his teeth or you can continue to take off what you need to off his back teeth and let nature decide when he leaves you. I chose my vet's alternative and Barney lived to be 14.

If you only have a couple of whippets you can easily brush and clean their teeth enough to avoid the "requirement" for dental work. And if, like us, you have a large number of whippets, you can avoid the "requirement" for dental work by looking into the mouth of your dog once or twice a month and cleaning any build up before it becomes too much and too gross. It is simple to do, takes minutes to perform, and that mixed with good hard bones to chew etc. is honestly all your dog needs.

I have a friend who just paid over $600 to clean the teeth of a three year old mixed breed poodle and god knows what. We board her dog, the dog sleeps in my bed when she is away and I told her this dog does not need this cleaning. She has white teeth, minimal discolouration, no build up, but did my friend listen to me? No! She was certain since we were not vets -- just dog professionals with a lifetime in dogs (my motther, and both grandfathers bred and showed dogs for generations before me), and so she went ahead with the procedure and paid it, despite the fact the dog had minimal build up and what was there could have been easily removed.

Who is the fool? I would suggest it was certainly not her vet who told her ALL dogs need this sort of treatment annually! Sheiilagh may have been stupid once, but not if I can persuade her, next time, how foolish she was this time around.

Lanny

[jeffkmyers]

Thank you, Lanny, for sharing your knowledge and experience. These are my first whippets (and hopefully not my last) and I want to do what's best for them, to hell with the expense. I'll max out my credit cards, refinance my home, whatever it takes, if my whippets need preventive medical care that could improve and prolong their lives.
I know most people hate to see their pets anesthesized...so most people don't get vet cleaning...but I had been thinking that medical (vet) science knows best and could prolong my whippets' lives. (You're not a christian scientist, are you?) I truly believe medical science gets it right 95% of the time.
Your experience with so many dogs for so many years really is valuable...to everyone who reads your posts...so thank you again.
So you're saying that the risk of anesthesia far outweighs the risk of gum disease, infection, etc? I brush their teeth, but my female's teeth seem to get discolored after a year or less anyway. So you're saying the brushing is good enough, and even if the teeth get discolored, that's basically OK. What about what's happening under or below the gumline?
Anyway, thank you again, and I'm going to reconsider taking them for vet cleaning ever again.
Jeff

[avalonia]

No, I am not Christian Scientist -- I neither believe in nor do I belong to any religion -- but I am pretty experienced with dogs having grown up in a household with grandparents who were breeders of gundogs, a mother who bred and showed collies, and having had substantial experience with all those dogs over my lifetime (I am now in my late 50s). I would describe myself as a practical, sensible dog owner. My vet says I know as much about most aspects of canine health as he does.

I certainly have no trouble with dogs being anaesthasized for procedures such as spaying/neutering or essential surgery, but anaesthetics can leave lasting impacts on the brain and so I think the less times a dog (or a human) is put under, the better. Despite the obvious good health of a whippet, putting a dog under always has the potential for danger, even with the modern new drugs they use. Back in the 90s we had the misfortune to have bred a wonderful young whippet dog whom we placed with two medical doctors and a daughter who was a vet tech at a local vets hospital. Despite all that medical competence, when Dustan went in for neutering the daughter allowed a just graduated vet that she admired at the hospital do the surgery, and she killed the dog with an overdose of the anaesthetic. I cannot tell you how horrible the impact of that has been on us, except to say that as a consequence of his death we have been very careful about who we will let do a surgery on any of our dogs.

It also means that we have routinely relied on local anaesthetic for simple procedures like stitches for minor pelt tears etc. And it has definitely coloured our thinking about putting dogs under to clean their teeth. Hence our careful attention to their teeth, using brushing, scalers we have bought from our own dentist etc. If you only have a couple of whippets it is very easy to work on their teeth a tooth or two at a time. Indeed that is what I do with our bunch -- a tooth here, a tooth there. They are as used to having their teeth checked as they are having their nails cut, and put up little or no resistance to having their mouthes checked and cleaned.

One of the biggest causes of poor dental hygiene is the food we give our dogs. Some foods seem to accumulate in and around the gums and over time cause buildup and problems. We routinely buy the cow leg bones sold by most butchers as soup bones, give them a good sprinkle of garlic powder, then bake them at 325 for about 40 minutes, cool and give to the dogs. Once cooked these things are as hard as anything and excellent chewing items for the dogs to work their teeth out on. Bones like these go a long way to preventing plaque build up which is a large part of the problem.

Lanny

[jeffkmyers]

Thank you again, Lanny. I value your advice. Experience is the best teacher, and you have it in spades. I think I will discontinue the anesthesia cleaning, and improve my brushing technique to concentrate on the rear molars. I did try cow bones with Devo & Daisy back when I was gung-ho on non-anesthetic cleaning options, and unlike most dogs, they didn't know what to do with the bones. Eventually Daisy nibbled a bit, but Devo looked overwhelmed. The bones sat there for several days, and then I threw them away (I think Devo suspected they were supposed to be good for him!). We also tried switching from canned and dry store bought dog food to home cooked meat etc. Same problem. Devo is very suspicious of any attempts to better him. If he thinks it's supposed to be good for him, he gives you that "wait a minute...what's going on here" look and backs away slowly. Then I tried greenies as they were supposed to keep teeth clean, but then greenies ended up on the news as being potentially fatal.
Anyway, thank you again!
Jeff, Devo & Daisy

[avalonia]

Part of the problem with the cow leg bones is they are often a bit too big for a whippet mouth. We have the butcher cut them in half -- still way too big to be swallowed or get stuck in the mouth, but half the size of what you buy and they work really well. Whippets really want something that fits comfortably into their jaw, so consider that and try down sizing the size of the bone a bit. You will be surprised.

Lanny

[Fizgig]

If it is within your comfort zone, beef neck bones work well also, but I've only ever fed them raw so I'm not sure how they'd fare in the oven, probably not well. They can usually be found at the grocery store also. They're softer than leg bones, so more gets eaten. Chicken wings (raw) get eaten completely and are great for teeth too, but aren't right for every dog.

I've never had my 3-yr-old's teeth cleaned yet, but he's still young and I feed a raw diet. However I'm a physician working in an ER, and I daily use the drug propofol (diprivan) on humans without a second thought. It's gloriously safe, and wears off in a few minutes, without the grogginess associated with benzos or other sedatives. Many vets are using it for shorter procedures alone, and as an adjunct to other anesthesia in longer procedures. I would let Fizgig or puppy Zuul have a needed procedure without hesitation if Propofol were used. Full anesthesia for longer procedures is still a little risky, but a million times safer than 10-20 years ago.

I agree that yearly cleanings aren't necessary for all dogs. But in all honesty, most of us aren't out there scaling our dogs teeth on a daily basis! Give it a try the natural and DIY way first....but go back in and talk with your vet if it isn't working! If you don't trust your vet, and think he's not sighthound-savvy, or is just out there for a buck, then you need to find one you trust.

[jeffkmyers]

Thank you! How are your whippets doing up there in the Great White North? Or is that Canada? What's Minnesota? (The Frozen Tundra is Wisconsin, right?) Do they like snow?
My vet consitently advises AGAINST un-necessary procedures. He is also WHIPPET-PSYCHIC. My 13 yrold female, Daisy, has dengerative disc disease, (heriated disc in her neck) and this vet recognised that Daisy is very stoic and doesn't express pain usually (her brother, Devo, is the exact opposite).
I trust him. Just as importantly, Devo & Daisy trust him.
Thanks again.

[Fizgig]

We're having a great time with the 18 inches of snow that just got dumped on us last week. Thank gods I got an industrial-strength snowthrower! It's actually been in the 30s and almost 40 since then, so the snow is now nice and crusty, just the right consistency to scrape up whippet legs!

Actually it's overall been a mild winter. However, now I'm looking forward to a sprint past muddy spring directly into blissful summer!

We actually moved just a titch over the border into Hudson WI, which is essentially now a St Paul suburb! I don't admit to most people that I live in the Cheesehead State though...I'm from the Twin Cities if anyone asks!

Oh, and glad to hear you like your vet...good ones are hard to find!

[chelynnah]

Wow - that's a pretty broad sweeping brush to tar all vets with - just going with the new money spinner. I just think that's a shame to have that view of vets. The relationship with a vet is one of the most important ones that you have. If you don't have a vet where you feel you can honestly communicate with them and that they have the best interests of your dog at heart, then get another, but to claim they're all in it for the money... That's just sad actually

As for the dentals, the last thing I want is to put any of my dogs under for a dental. My vets are of the same belief - going under is a last resort for anything, and to that end, Savannah (who gets bad buildup) is a little star who lets them scale her teeth every few months when she needs it. If she didn't let them do that, then with how fast it builds up I would DEFFINITELY let her go under every so often. You have to weigh the risks of surgery to the risks of infections in the blood which can, and do, kill dogs.

Dogs with really bad teeth (esp under the gumline) can have life threatening repurcussions. The infection under the gums spreads into the bloodstream and all sorts of complications can arise. So it's a matter of weighing the risks of one over the other - which is the lesser of two evils.

At a younger age - I'd choose the surgery if necessary (not as a routine). At an older age I'd have a LONG chat with the vet about it, share your concerns, look into non-anasthetic options.

We are lucky - we switched to giving the girls raw knuckle bones in the summers. Chelsea was at a point where she was almost needing a cleaning. The raw bones cleaned her teeth in a couple of weeks (we do this in addition to a partially raw meaty bone diet). Savvy's got much better so she just needs a scale every few months. And so far Teya (who was started on a partial raw meaty bone diet, and the marrowbones) has teeth that are better than Savvy's were at the same age.

Sighthounds are notorious for bad teeth. They're not sure if it's the shape of the mouth, the type of saliva or what, but generally they seem to be some of the worst.

So talk about it - weigh your options, and build a good trusting relationship with your vet.

Wendy

[avalonia]

Hi back. I was just reading the April 2006 issue of Dogs in Canada, official publication of the Canadian Kennel Club and there is an advertisement in the magazine introducing a product called Leba III. It is described as a dentgal product for dogs and cats and it claims to clean teeth with the ease of a spray. It shows two photos of a dog's jaws -- pre-treatment and 28 days later and the putative difference is amazing.

I have no idea if this product works or not but here is what is said about it, and there is a www. link www.lebalab.com and an email address at tellus@lebalab.com There is also a 1-866-532-2522 number and (519) 542-3165 which is guess takes you to a Canadian distributor

The ad says:

No brushing, no change in diet, people and pets love it.

Herbal product, causes no enamel damange and no side-effects

100% response in double blind tests

Save your pet the trauma of anesthesia and save yourself the expense of periodontal cleanings

Ideal for home dental care

It would certainly be interesting to hear/see if it works.

Lanny

[Gary]

Wow, Lanny, that stuff sounds great! Has anyone tried it?!! You know....I'd hate to use one of my dogs as a guinea pig....I wonder if Tina's up to having some experimenting done on her? No, no, I'm serious! She's a pretty healthy ol' girl, and I think she's up for it. What do y'all think?

[doane]

Hi back. I was just reading the April 2006 issue of Dogs in Canada, official publication of the Canadian Kennel Club and there is an advertisement in the magazine introducing a product called Leba III. It is described as a dentgal product for dogs and cats and it claims to clean teeth with the ease of a spray. It shows two photos of a dog's jaws -- pre-treatment and 28 days later and the putative difference is amazing.

I have no idea if this product works or not but here is what is said about it, and there is a www. link www.lebalab.com and an email address at tellus@lebalab.com There is also a 1-866-532-2522 number and (519) 542-3165 which is guess takes you to a Canadian distributor

The ad says:

No brushing, no change in diet, people and pets love it.

Herbal product, causes no enamel damange and no side-effects

100% response in double blind tests

Save your pet the trauma of anesthesia and save yourself the expense of periodontal cleanings

Ideal for home dental care

It would certainly be interesting to hear/see if it works.

Lanny

Well... I ordered this for $50 I'm either a fool or this is really going to be great. I hate putting my dogs under too and my IG has horrible teeth, what's left of them, so I hope this works. I'll let you all know.